Like other people, I don't quite follow the logic on Dark Landorus-Incarnate. What does it get out of it? I've
fought it, but I don't
get it. Everything else in A+ I agree with.
Ground Keldeo
Grass/
Ground Talonflame
Again, why Grass for Talonflame? I get Ground, overall, since it provides immunity to Electric while resisting Stealth Rock, but Grass providing resistance to Water is kind of meh when Stealth Rock rips off half your health, it adds no notable STAB, it renders you weak to Poison, Flying, and Ice... If you want Water resistance, Dragon is far more useful (Gain a Dragon and Ice weakness, stop being weak to Water
and Electric) and Water works if you're OK with a double Electric weakness. (And Ground typing leaves you with a double Water weakness too, so "double weakness=awful" clearly doesn't apply)
I've also seen Ground Keldeo so I won't argue it doesn't happen, but I have always been puzzled as to the appeal. Yeah, it removes the Electric weakness, but it also leaves Keldeo cripplingly weak to Grass and the double resistance to Rock is meh while the resistance to Poison is less meh but still meh. Is there really no other type that is better for it?
Dark Mamoswine
Steel/
Grass Thundurus
I still don't get Dark Mamoswine. Yay double Fighting weakness, in exchange for STAB on Knock Off? Again, I've seen people run it, I just find it strange.
I'm more curious about Grass Thundurus. Why would you do that? Especially since anybody assuming Steel is likely to hit it with Fire anyway and still kill it.
In the meantime, let's talk about all those "good, not super good though" mons. B rank nominations are ready to roll, and I'm going to kick it off with a classic: Flying Excadrill.
Definitely somewhere in B. Flying Excadrill is nice, but not
amazing, especially since stuff like Flying Heatran laughs at it. (It honestly surprised me how underwhelming Flying Excadrill actually is)
Kind of surprised I've never seen Ground Tentacruel used as a Rapid Spinner, or maybe Grass or something.
WHERE'S GRASS MANAPHY - A/A+
It's in S.
Flying Magneton - B/B+? It KO's non-Fire Punch Dragonite, and KO's many of the other steel types there are (which is a crap lot).
Absolutely a solid B-something, but it doesn't actually KO Steel Dragonite if it's carrying Roost.
252+ SpA Choice Specs Analytic Fire Magneton Hidden Power Fire vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Multiscale Steel Dragonite: 99-117 (30.6 - 36.2%) -- 49.9% chance to 3HKO
Meanwhile
+1 252+ Atk Steel Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Fire Magneton: 114-135 (47.1 - 55.7%) -- 80.1% chance to 2HKO
Will usually 2HKO it. Replacing the Specs with Eviolite just means Dragonite can use a mix of Dragon Dance and Roost and ultimately kill it and everything it loves.
EDIT: Actually, why am I taking seriously the idea of Hidden Power Fire on a Flying type Magneton?
Rock Breloom - A- because nice Technician Rock Tomb.
I agree, particularly since it combos well with its defensive typing.
Electric Kyurem-Black - Can take care of S Steel Dragonite easily and does alot of other things that are bulky because of their ability (Mega-Venu etc.).
+1 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 24 HP / 0 Def Kyurem-B: 440-518 (110.8 - 130.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
If you say so. Also, if you're Banded, you
need Outrage for the reliable OHKO
252+ Atk Choice Band Teravolt Kyurem-B Dragon Claw vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Steel Dragonite: 274-324 (84.8 - 100.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
or else you have almost no shot at it.
If you're not Banded, you're Scarfed and now
Outrage has that tiny chance of a OHKO, you are restricted to revenging Dragonite and only once it's wounded, and only if it hasn't gotten two Dragon Dances up. Either way, it still OHKOs you.
This is an extremely questionable "takes care of Steel Dragonite easily".
Isa Simple said:
Are the any pokemon that are a perfect full stop to all possible D-Nite sets? Because the more people argue that it can beat clef (which really doesn't hurt clef's viability given that from what I'm hearing it beats 99% of the meta), the more I'm beginning to think Dragonite is broken.
Electric Mega Gardevoir murders Clefable unless it's running Steel, and potentially even then, Poison Scrafty murders Clefable no matter what set it's running so long as it doesn't horribly mis-predict, Dragalge will Sludge Wave non-Steel variants, Grass Mega Charizard Y will Solar Beam Water variants and Fire Blast anything else, Grass Manaphy annihilates it with Energy Ball as previously covered... it hard-walls some important Pokemon, but Clefable doesn't "beat 99% of the meta". It just reliably beats some of staples.
I'm also not following the logic that Clefable being unable to reliably beat Dragonite=Dragonite is broken, particularly when paired with an assertion amounting to "Clefable is broken, and that's a good thing".
Dragonite is generally brought to a screeching halt by...
-Flying Heatran. Even carrying Thunderpunch or the like only goes so far to mitigate this. (Special Rain Dragonite not so much, but it's probably obvious that it's coming)
-Grass Heatran. If Dragonite is carrying Earthquake, it can put some pain in on Heatran, but if it isn't it's got nothing it can do at
all. (Special Rain Dragonite can get in some damage, but not nearly as well as against Flying Heatran)
-Quagsire, sort of. (It can't Toxic it, but it can Burn it and then either push through a lot of PP or pass the buck off to some other, non-Unaware wall, or to an Unaware Clefable)
-Non-Dragon Skarmory is unafraid of anything except bizarre, Fire Blast carrying sets, and any set carrying Fire Blast specifically to counter Skarmory is much,
much less threatening. And then it can Whirlwind out Dragonite just fine.
-Water Hippowdon. Draco Meteor is basically all Dragonite can carry to seriously hurt it (No you can't carry Hidden Power Grass, because that means you're Grass Dragonite and hilariously bad. lol x8 Ice weakness), and it again severely compromises Dragonite's ability to threaten other things.
-Water Gliscor, sort of. With good prediction you can Knock Off Dragonite's HP down to Roosting levels and then catch it with Earthquake and kill it. Ice Punch is all Dragonite can carry to hurry things up, and honestly it's probably not worth it -Dragon Claw is almost as powerful and doesn't involve compromising Dragonite's utility.
-Water Ferrothorn, or Ghost Ferrothorn. Not perfect, particularly the latter if Dragonite carries Fire Punch or the like, but just the ability to throw out Leech Seed, Knock Off, Thunder Wave, etc means Dragonite really
really doesn't want to stay in on it when it can't even take it down without substantial boosting.
-Steel Mega Slowbro. +6 252+ Atk Dragonite Dragon Claw vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Steel Mega Slowbro: 137-162 (34.7 - 41.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO. Just spam Calm Mind and Slack Off and then murder Dragonite. Or spam Scald and Slack Off. Carrying Thunderpunch or Earthquake helps, but it still requires heavy boosting to work, +6 252+ Atk burned Dragonite Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Mega Slowbro: 229-270 (58.1 - 68.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO as in Mega Slowbro has to let you get all the way to +6 to actually start dying if it gets you Burned with Scald. And even then, it can potentially Slack Off through the attacks until Dragonite Burns to death, or with good prediction get a hit in when Dragonite Roosts. Not even getting into the possibility of Iron Defense Mega Slowbro, which laughs at any Dragonite that isn't carrying Special.
I am 99% confident there's other stuff I'm not thinking of/not remembering/whatever that do a solid job too, it's just they aren't the shiny favorites of Hidden Type. The above is just a number of things I've actually seen a decent amount. (Well, less so Steel Mega Slowbro)